Curse

warriorsmiley · Aug 02, 2006, 09:36 AM // 09:36

Anyone taking Random Arena PVP seriously needs to get those 10 wins and unlock TA and HA because obviously they havent had the game long enough. In pve sure you can bring a rez sig any good pve team only has 1-2 people taking damage at anytime and they are the warriors(tanks) .Now in pvp taking random arena for example who ever takes damage its just so random because believe it or not there is no such thing as a tank in pvp. Now its easier to heal 2 people that have 80-100 armor then it is to heal a team of 4 softies (including yourself) with 60-70 armor. Point being in pve you need less skill slots as a monk then you do in pvp.

Also a monk standing for 3 seconds using a rez sig is what most call standing bait. Its takes less then 3 seconds for that monk using a rez sig to get hit by a eviscerate+executioner+lightening orb+lightening strike.

Most the time if a team of 3 and boon prot cant kill anything before your monk has to use a rez sig it means you already lost. Like i stated before any person who takes Random Arena PVP seriously needs to HA or join a gvg guild or something. Its nearly impossible to take a place serious when i see my mo/mes casting diversion and backfire, or my w/e using meteor shower, or heck even the classic mo/r with a bow using favorable winds and bow attacks, let not forget about the classic premade wa/mo's with healing hands and mending.

Lady Lozza · Aug 02, 2006, 09:41 AM // 09:41

Actually it has a lot less to do with loosing a skill and a lot more to do with the fact that a monk simply cannot afford to stop healing the team long enough to actually res anyone. This is why, in pve - expect in exceptional circumstances - monks do not res in the middle of a fight.

X/mo should always have res, though it is normally in the form of res sig.

fenix · Aug 02, 2006, 09:44 AM // 09:44

In PvP, a Mo/ bringing res is stupid. In PvE, a Mo/ not bringing res is stupid. There is no need to bring it in PvP because it wastes valuable healing time, whereas in PvE you don't need to heal as much, or bring all the same skills, so res should be in your bar.

B Ephekt · Aug 02, 2006, 09:54 AM // 09:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silent Kitty

I have seen many parties fail, because the last one standing didn't have a rez. It is very refreshing to see that there are so many people here, who don't give a shit about rezzing others. All they care about is themselves.
When you can't figure out what skills to take for a certain mission, you have a problem.
I always have rebirth on me, and I still manage to heal, remove conditions, remove hexes, and manage my energy.

That's nice but we're not talking about pve.

Thom Bangalter · Aug 02, 2006, 10:00 AM // 10:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yanman.be

Monks should not bring res. and x/mo's should be shot.

since when did blood spike and rezmers start sucking?

Jerich · Aug 02, 2006, 10:50 AM // 10:50

If I brought res sig I would have to seriously gimp myself as a monk.

LordLucifer · Aug 02, 2006, 07:31 PM // 19:31

meh, looks like ppl just like the excuse of "Mo/x dont need rez" even tho it makes the team much less effective in PvP, oh well, cant blame them, if other classes had the same lame excuse they would defend it as well

still its funny how a superb monk can solo keep an 8 ppl team alive AND have room for rez, 2 regular monks can keep an 8 ppl team alive AND have room for rez, but RA/TA/HA is totally different, hmm ok, still id rather have a monk who cant remove blindness over 1 who cant remove death

PS: monks in PvE dont rez right in the middle of battle, why should they do it in PvP like some ppl are saying here? -_- (some cases are exceptions)

Quote:

) Proper English in your post helps. It's not that hard to type out "everyone" instead of "every1," and doing so makes your post easier to read, and makes people actualy want to reply.

no1 is forcing u 2 reply

B Ephekt · Aug 02, 2006, 07:35 PM // 19:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by LordLucifer

meh, looks like ppl just like the excuse of "Mo/x dont need rez" even tho it makes the team much less effective in PvP, oh well, cant blame them, if other classes had the same lame excuse they would defend it as well

You don't seem to have very much experience in pvp, so I'm not really sure what you're on about.

Quote:

still its funny how a superb monk can solo keep an 8 ppl team alive AND have room for rez, 2 regular monks can keep an 8 ppl team alive AND have room for rez, but RA/TA/HA is totally different

I'm sorry, but if you don't understand why monking in pvp is different from monking in pve then you really have no basis for your arguements.

Go look at any top rated guild's monks, they won't have rez sigs, and for good reason. We've already explained why monks shouldn't rez in pvp, but you seem incapable, or unwilling, to grasp this concept.

Quote:

hmm ok, still id rather have a monk who cant remove blindness over 1 who cant remove death

In pvp, a continously blind warrior might as well be dead.

Quote:

PS: monks in PvE dont rez right in the middle of battle, why should they do it in PvP like some ppl are saying here? -_- (some cases are exceptions)

Because there aren't many down times from fighting in pvp like their is in pve. And at the point a monk would be able to rez, you'd have already lost the match in terms of morale and a means to regain it to rez the rest of your team.

LordLucifer · Aug 02, 2006, 07:39 PM // 19:39

Quote:

In pvp, a continously blind warrior might as well be dead.

no, hes not dealing his dmg while still keeping pressure even if minimal and is still a target for enemy attacks, soaking up dmg

a dead warrior is out of battle, maybe as a well of blood he can be handy..

ic you edited whole post so..

Quote:

You don't seem to have very much experience in pvp, so I'm not really sure what you're on about.

i wouldnt be so sure of that, just tired of the lame excuse when other classes could put that 8th slot for a much better use, note that those..common known builds is ok to not bring like i stated before (cant find the post right now) because the whole team knows how it works and skills are counted

Quote:

I'm sorry, but if you don't understand why monking in pvp is different from monking in pve then you really have no basis for your arguements.

Go look at any top rated guild's monks, they won't have rez sigs, and for good reason. We've already explained why monks shouldn't rez in pvp, but you seem incapable, or unwilling, to grasp this concept.

in PvP you heal and prot just like PvE, and they do a really fine job WITH rez on their bar

Quote:

Because there aren't many down times from fighting in pvp like their is in pve. And at the point a monk would be able to rez, you'd have already lost the match in terms of morale and a means to regain it to rez the rest of your team.

no way, like i said before IF the monk in my team didnt use that cliche excuse things could be really different, but in the end monk made us lose a battle because all he could do was: walk around in circles and healing himself, and rez sig is a 3 secs cast, RA and TA you got plenty of time to use it and noone will die (like i said, ppl dont die when others do it even when theres no monk, why would they die with a monk? because a monk is an excuse to ignore your own HP bar and go tank with an assassin? dont think so)

holden · Aug 02, 2006, 07:56 PM // 19:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by LordLucifer

till its funny how a superb monk can solo keep an 8 ppl team alive AND have room for rez, 2 regular monks can keep an 8 ppl team alive AND have room for rez, but RA/TA/HA is totally different, hmm ok, still id rather have a monk who cant remove blindness over 1 who cant remove death

a retard can keep a team alive in pve. look at the skills the monk is using next time you're on a mission. i promise you'll see breeze more times than not.

in RA/TA the smart players will be in your face until you die or until they die. they will not worry about anyone else on the team, only the monk. so if no one else is being attacked what good will a res do the monk? it's all about keeping yourself alive until your team kills your attackers.

if you're playing with teams that dont attack the monk first thing then the play is poor and really who cares if you have res or not.

blind causes a 90% chance to miss with your attack. even in pve when the warrior is a damage sponge, if the monk let's that fly he sucks.

*lemming* · Aug 02, 2006, 08:01 PM // 20:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by LordLucifer

no, hes not dealing his dmg while still keeping pressure

How is he pressuring if he's not hitting anything?

Quote:

Originally Posted by LordLucifer

even if minimal and is still a target for enemy attacks, soaking up dmg

This isn't pve.

Warriors aren't there to "tank" in pvp.

kkthx.

Following your edit:

Quote:

Originally Posted by LordLucifer

in PvP you heal and prot just like PvE, and they do a really fine job WITH rez on their bar

PvE is easy. AI is stupid.

PvP is hard.

LordLucifer · Aug 02, 2006, 08:19 PM // 20:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by tehlemming

How is he pressuring if he's not hitting anything?

This isn't pve.

Warriors aren't there to "tank" in pvp.

kkthx.

Following your edit:

PvE is easy. AI is stupid.

PvP is hard.

*sigh* thats getting dumb..
PvP when you see a warrior running to you, whats the 1st impulse? to run! that could interrupt a spell, take a foe out from the fight for a few secs while hes running (till he notices the warrior is blind) or cause an enemy to recast blind on you, or even attack/snare (since your already blind its better to get you snared than som1 else)

EDIT: to make it simple in cause you still didnt get it presence counts!

Quote:

in RA/TA the smart players will be in your face until you die or until they die. they will not worry about anyone else on the team, only the monk. so if no one else is being attacked what good will a res do the monk? it's all about keeping yourself alive until your team kills your attackers.

if you're playing with teams that dont attack the monk first thing then the play is poor and really who cares if you have res or not.

read up...
monk may be the 1st to die, but also the 1st to be rezed when hes dead, if you arent familiar with the situation when last member rez the monk with his sig then dies you surelly dont play too much

B Ephekt · Aug 02, 2006, 08:29 PM // 20:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by LordLucifer

no, hes not dealing his dmg while still keeping pressure even if minimal and is still a target for enemy attacks, soaking up dmg

Any intelligent team will completely ignore a blinded warrior, because he will be doing absolutely 0 damage or pressure. And if the opposing team has the means to continuously blind that warrior (Blinding Flash, Dust Trap + Oath, Throw Dirt) and you can't remove it, then you've not only failed at your job as a monk, but caused your team to lose a primary damage dealer. Good luck with your extra rez when your warrior can't do anything.

Quote:

i wouldnt be so sure of that

From your responces, I would say you play a lot of pve and RA, maybe a bit of TA, but I seriously doubt you've ever taken part in a decently rated GvG or played in a decent HA team. I don't say this to be rude, you just seem to lack a fundemental understanding of pvp in this game.

Quote:

in PvP you heal and prot just like PvE, and they do a really fine job WITH rez on their bar

Go watch high rated GvG matches on observer mode, go watch decent teams in Halls - they DO NOT use rez sigs on their monks. Go look at the standard SB/Infuser, Boon Prot, WoH/HP, Rc Prot bars and tell me what you'd take out for a rez sig and STILL be able to do your job. You can theorize about this stuff all you want, but you haven't made a single intelligent or compelling argument for what could be removed in favor of a rez sig.

Quote:

no way, like i said before IF the monk in my team didnt use that cliche excuse things could be really different, but in the end monk made us lose a battle because all he could do was: walk around in circles and healing himself, and rez sig is a 3 secs cast, RA and TA you got plenty of time to use it and noone will die (like i said, ppl dont die when others do it even when theres no monk, why would they die with a monk? because a monk is an excuse to ignore your own HP bar and go tank with an assassin? dont think so)

And what good will one extra rez do you when the rest of your team has already used their sigs? Prolong your defeat? gg

LordLucifer · Aug 02, 2006, 08:34 PM // 20:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by B Ephekt

Any intelligent team will completely ignore a blinded warrior, because he will be doing absolutely 0 damage or pressure. And if the opposing team has the means to continuously blind that warrior (Blinding Flash, Dust Trap + Oath, Throw Dirt) and you can't remove it, then you've not only failed at your job as a monk, but caused your team to lose a primary damage dealer. Good luck with your extra rez when your warrior can't do anything.

From your responces, I would say you play a lot of pve and RA, maybe a bit of TA, but I seriously doubt you've ever taken part in a decently rated GvG or played in a decent HA team. I don't say this to be rude, you just seem to lack a fundemental understanding of pvp in this game.
Go watch high rated GvG matches on observer mode, go watch decent teams in Halls - they DO NOT use rez sigs on their monks. Go look at the standard SB/Infuser, Boon Prot, WoH/HP, Rc Prot bars and tell me what you'd take out for a rez sig and STILL be able to do your job. You can theorize about this stuff all you want, but you haven't made a single intelligent or compelling argument for what could be removed in favor of a rez sig.

And what good will one extra rez do you when the rest of your team has already used their sigs? Prolong your defeat? gg

Quote:

wouldnt be so sure of that, just tired of the lame excuse when other classes could put that 8th slot for a much better use, note that those..common known builds is ok to not bring like i stated before (cant find the post right now) because the whole team knows how it works and skills are counted

*need to type something*

holden · Aug 02, 2006, 08:48 PM // 20:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by LordLucifer

read up...
monk may be the 1st to die, but also the 1st to be rezed when hes dead, if you arent familiar with the situation when last member rez the monk with his sig then dies you surelly dont play too much

i'm not sure what you're saying here. it's sort of like you typedrealfast and didn't quite get your thoughts out.

i would think that the first to die would be the first rezed no matter what character he is.

you gotta help me with the last bit. i understand the insult part but the last member rez the monk part is sort of confusing.

Slooty Booty · Aug 02, 2006, 09:05 PM // 21:05

Lucifer, what bar would you recommend for a PvP monk that includes rez? Please enlighten us. You might just change the metagame if you're as right as you think you are.

sotodefonk · Aug 02, 2006, 09:12 PM // 21:12

he said that all members of his team dies, except for a warrior, he is alive... so trying to do a last effort, he rez the monk, but get ganked by all the enemies, so he rez the monk but die... so the only one alive is the monk:

1. If he has rez, he can rebirth, resurrect, w/e, one allie and win the battle...

2. If he doesnt have rez, the team lose because of the monk...

I dont think that monk can rez anyone, because if he is the only one alive, he will get ganked by all the other team, so he will be dead in less than 3 seconds (if you are rezzing, you cant heal yourself).

Anyway, for me, if you get to the point that you are the only one alive, then you are not doing your job.

SnipiousMax · Aug 02, 2006, 09:24 PM // 21:24

Another question, to help the understanding process:

When you play PvE, and your entire party but you is wiped out, would you stand there and try and rez someone while you still held agro?

No, right? It'd be stupid to try and rez while stuff was still trying to kill you, and focused entirely on you. You'd run away, wait for things to calm down, and then rebirth someone away from the mob.

So, a situation where using a rez as a monk would be a good idea requires certain condtions to be met.

1.) Nobody should be trying to kill you.
2.) No one else should need a heal.
3.) You should have time to recover after using the rez.

There are more, but we'll stick with those in the intrest of time. Now lets apply that to PvP.

1.) Everyone will always be trying to kill you.
2.) If someone else is alive, chances are they'll need a heal or hex/condtion removal
3.) When are you going to recover?

Now going to the situation that keeps being brought up. If the monk is using the rez sig, that means that everyone else is 1.) dead. 2.) out of rez sigs 3.) both. Lets assume that the best case scenario is that everyone is just dead. So you rez one, while everyone on the other team has their sights set on you, do you really think you stand much of a chance rezing the other two? If everyone is out of Rez sigs, then the game is half over. They've managed to blow all of your sigs with you healing constantly.... What do you think they are going to do if you stop? If its both, then what do you really expect the two of you are going to do against the rest of the team?

I'm sorry, all logic does not warrant or justify bringing a Rez if you are the primary sorce of damage mitigation on your team. There's just nothing to gain from it.

ender6 · Aug 02, 2006, 10:08 PM // 22:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnipiousMax

Another question, to help the understanding process:

When you play PvE, and your entire party but you is wiped out, would you stand there and try and rez someone while you still held agro?

No, right? It'd be stupid to try and rez while stuff was still trying to kill you, and focused entirely on you. You'd run away, wait for things to calm down, and then rebirth someone away from the mob.

So, a situation where using a rez as a monk would be a good idea requires certain condtions to be met.

1.) Nobody should be trying to kill you.
2.) No one else should need a heal.
3.) You should have time to recover after using the rez.

There are more, but we'll stick with those in the intrest of time. Now lets apply that to PvP.

1.) Everyone will always be trying to kill you.
2.) If someone else is alive, chances are they'll need a heal or hex/condtion removal
3.) When are you going to recover?

Now going to the situation that keeps being brought up. If the monk is using the rez sig, that means that everyone else is 1.) dead. 2.) out of rez sigs 3.) both. Lets assume that the best case scenario is that everyone is just dead. So you rez one, while everyone on the other team has their sights set on you, do you really think you stand much of a chance rezing the other two? If everyone is out of Rez sigs, then the game is half over. They've managed to blow all of your sigs with you healing constantly.... What do you think they are going to do if you stop? If its both, then what do you really expect the two of you are going to do against the rest of the team?

I'm sorry, all logic does not warrant or justify bringing a Rez if you are the primary sorce of damage mitigation on your team. There's just nothing to gain from it.

QFT

Oh wait appranetly LordLucifer can't handle the truth...

For those who actually are new to monking in PvP and are actually reading this thread, don't bring a rez signet.

hmm, I'm sure there must be a loop hole that a mod could use to close this thread.

warriorsmiley · Aug 03, 2006, 01:03 AM // 01:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by LordLucifer

still its funny how a superb monk can solo keep an 8 ppl team alive AND have room for rez, 2 regular monks can keep an 8 ppl team alive AND have room for rez, but RA/TA/HA is totally different, hmm ok, still id rather have a monk who cant remove blindness over 1 who cant remove death

PS: monks in PvE dont rez right in the middle of battle, why should they do it in PvP like some ppl are saying here? -_- (some cases are exceptions)

Ok we have stated many times before pve and pvp are to differnt things. Basing pvp on pve is just plain stupid. In pve when things go wrong you move back let the enemy settle and rebirth your teammates back to life. In pvp there is no such thing as letting your enemy's settle when they see your team going down that is when the battle gets intense and they go straight at you not settle down to let you get your teammates up that just doesnt happen. Im sure the entire pvp community is with me when i say that were sorry we dont have the AI of most the monsters u fight in pve.